Comment that makes point!

26Sep08

Here is a counter argument from Armugam that pin-points  falacies in Jerry’s comment…
 

“I find this post Racist than beautiful. Even Dr. Ambedkar completely dismissed the idea that the Dalits and OBCs are a disticnt race as compared to Dwijas. There are several loopholes in this racist theory. There are many SC/OBC who are of eurasian origin (ex: gujjars). Racial purity is a myth of Manuwadis and this post is stating the same theory in inverse. The people who popularised this theory are the Adi-Dharmi followers of Ravidas and the dravidian movement in Tamil Nadu. It has no scientific basis as there has been sufficient intermingling of races in India. If you are trying to shift the blame from the members of the Kunbi OBC community who murdered and raped the dalit Bhootmange family to a broader caste spectrum then it is another matter. But that would be distorting facts and the truth.

Considering the above so called progressive post. The OBC kunbis who commited the crimes on the Bhootmange family should not be punished and hanged but they should rather be educated that the crimes they commited are at the bidding of Dwijas. How are you legally going to establish that the Dwijas indoctrinated the Kunbi OBCs to commit this crime. Do you have concrete evidence. The case will fall completely flat on its face. The Bhootmanges will not get justice and become pawns in the machinations of these baseless political ideologies. These so called progressive thoughts only reinforce inhuman behaviour.”

Armugam, thanks for comments. Your point is valid that tolerance on grounds of empirical theories may be fatal, consequences would be emergance of elements of superiority or inferiority among groups. However Jerry was right when he said ‘no’ to any grounds for hate among people with typical backgounds like OBC’s as a group of people. Idealogies can be fought against, what is good in celebrating win over group of people? 

Lets expell caste virus from minds by practicing constitutional morality, that’s what Great King Ashoka would have asked us to do, had he been alive>>



2 Responses to “Comment that makes point!”

  1. 1 jerry

    Dear Armugam:

    Acknowledging the comments of Armugam, following is submitted for consideration of readers in view of what is written and projected by Media who is using this verdict to increase the hate by publishing the celebrations photos and satisfaction comments of Dalit leaders.

    Armugam put many questions in his comments. Reply as follows:

    Q1. Dr. Ambedkar completely dismissed the idea that the Dalits and OBCs are
    a disticnt race as compared to Dwijas.

    Rep: In his book “Falsehood of aboriginals” Mulnivasiwad ka zuth. Habir Angar E writes the above taking the support of Babasahebs book “Who were Shudras” wherein Babasaheb writes the following:

    “The conclusions that follows from the examination of the Western theory may now be summarised. They are:
    (1) The Vedas do not know any such race as the Aryan race.
    (2) There is no evidence in the Vedas of any invasion of India by the Aryan race and its having conquered the Dasas and Dasyus supposed to be natives of India.
    (3) There is no evidence to show that the distinction between Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction.
    (4) The Vedas do not support the contention that the Aryas were different in colour from the Dasas and Dasyus.”

    This has been taken and used by many writers to affirm Armugam statement.

    On the other hand, in this book Babasaheb proved all the references used by English Authors for proving that Aryans are not Indians. Baba dedicated this book to Mahatma Jyotirao Phule who was the first Indian to research, write and publish that Aryans invaded India and they are not Indians do not stand logic. In his book, Baba found flaws with all the Western Historians evidences which they used to prove that there was invasion, but he did not attack Jyotirao Phule’s work. Rather, he dedicated this book to Jyotirao Phule. Why? Here are some explanations:

    A) Firstly it is to be understood that Babasaheb’s subject was “Who were Shudras” and not “Who were Aryans”. In this book Babasaheb ends para III of chapter XI of this book with

    “All this leaves no doubt that there was no reconciliation between the Brahmins and the Shudras.”

    And begins para IV of chapter XI with

    “That the Shudras of the Indo-Aryan and the Shudras of the Hindu Society are different and distinct is a fact which was present at one time to the minds of the Dharma Sutrakaras is quite clear. This is evident from the distinction they made between Sacchudra and Asac-ckudra and between Aniravasita Shudras and Niravasita Shudras. Sachudra means a cultured Shudra and asac-chudra means an uncultured Shudra. Nirvasita Shudra means a Shudra living in the village community. Anirvasita Shudra means a Shudra living outside the village community.”

    B) He proves that Aryans Arya Shudras who were distinct from Anarya Shudras. Arya Shudras were in enmity with Anarya Shudras. He points that the laws imposed by Aryans on Arya Shudras was also imposed on Anarya Shudras Again, Babasaheb has proved at page 101 of this book that there were two types of Aryans Alpine & Mediterranean and there is no evidence to prove which of them came first in India.. The book ends with some riddles. So he is sure of Aryans entry in India. Later, he agreed with Dr. Guha in Chapter 5 Section IX and concluded that Mediterranean came first.

    C) The last para of the book is reproduced below where he referes to Aryan Shudra:

    “With regard to my thesis it will be seen that it can explain everyone of these riddles. Postulates (1) to (4) explain how the Shudras could be kings and ministers and why the rishis should praise them and desire to be in their good books. Postulates (5) and (6) explain why there was a controversy over the Upanayana of the Shudra, also why the law not only denied the right to the Shudra but imposed penalties upon a Brahmin, helping to make it effective. Indeed there is no riddle which the thesis does not solve. The thesis, if I may say so, is a close and a perfect fit. Few theses can therefore have a better title deed than this.”

    Shudra refered above are Arya Shudra and not Anarya Shudra

    D) He left scope for further investigation to be continued later, but with his other projects and then his demise he left incomplete writings on this subject which were found in one of his trunk by the Committee incharge of publishing his writings. Government of Maharashtra, who published the unpublished and half written articles of Baba in the year 1987 as Vol-III has given major advantage for others to say that Baba did not agree with Aryan invasion This was done without checking whether these writings were before 1048. Now it is seen that these incomplete writings were completed in Who were Shudras with updations, and the same were not required to be published at all.

    E) Babasaheb clearly declares that there was Aryan invasion and Aryans are outsiders giving newly found evidences. Till recent time, because there was not other learned to continue his work further, this issue is highlighted as Baba rejected AIT. No, he did not at all. He says that there are no evidences to support this theory in RG Veda. Even there is no proof to prove that the Aryans are Indians in Rg veda.

    Now, with DNA test it closes the debate once and for all and that is why David Frawley (RSS sponsored Writer) writes that there are beautiful Shudras and ugly Brahmins.

    F) Speeches of Babasaheb:

    o On 24/11/1956 at Saranath Babasaheb gave speech wherein he said “There were wars between Aryans & Nagas. Aryans were on horses and so they won the battles”.
    o On 28/10/1956 at Ludhiana Babasaheb said “When Aryans came in India, the Chaturvarna system got established”
    o On 05/10/1956 at Deeksha Bhoomi Nagpur, he said “ Nagas were enemies of Aryans and there were wars between them. Aryans even burned Nagas.

    So Babasaheb was of one opinion that Aryans are invaders to India. Only he scrutinized this issue from all the angles to leave no space for his distracters to deny his findings.

    2. There are several loopholes in this racist theory.

    REP: Reply to 1 could be the explanation

    3. There are many SC/OBC who are of eurasian origin (ex: gujjars).

    Rep: Yes, the Arya Shudra as researched by Babasaheb for the first time, there are Aryans in OBC. About Gujjars, they choose to change their status from OBC to ST only to oppose Meena’s. Gujjars were rulers till 1847 when the British tagged them as Criminal Tribes due their illicit activities. Sonars, Vaidyas, Kayasthas are other examples of Arya Shudra. But surely, Kunbhi, Kurmi, Sutar, Lohar and others are Anarya Shudras i.e. Aboriginals.

    4. Racial purity is a myth of Manuwadis

    Rep: The Dwijas are so vigilant about their leinage that they protect interest of other Dwija irrespective of Religion. The ruling caste has ample of money for such activities as they are in control of wealthiest malls of India (temples, Churches and Mosques). Yes, have you ever heard of Roman Catholic Brahmin and Hussaini Muslim Brahmin. It is the fact that Brahmin has no Religious consistency towards Hinduism which they should have had as they call themselves as Creator & Controller of Hinduism. All they want is control over Religious malls. That is why, they did not leave Bodhgaya saying that Buddha is 9th Avtar of Vishnu and so they pray him. Then why they spare rest of the Buddhist Viharas? The Hajimalang near Kalyan can also be given an example, muslim dargah under Brahmin control. Point is they seek control over Religious malls, so as to take revenge on the descendents of those Kings who punished their forefathers. This is the sole reason of hatred and entire planning done on one Agenda finish aboriginals. You may please visit http://www.aryannation.com to understand how all the Aryans across the globe are under one umbrella irrespective of religion “TO MAKE THIS EARTH FREE FROM NON ARYANS” and wipe out other races. Aryans are known to keep agenda alive for ages and strike at favourable time. We try to understand their move and prepare accordingly. Further they know from their texts that they are on this earth to protect leinage rights and act accordingly in every generation. Then why not we all come up for our cause.

    There is not question of me to shift the blame from OBC to Brahmin, it is the reality but cleverly hidden by RSS in their manifesto that the culprit is Dwijas. OBCs are only pawn in their hands.

    5. It has no scientific basis as there has been sufficient intermingling of races in India. But that would be distorting facts and the truth.

    REP: Court of Law orders DNA test in cases when a man denies to be father of the child and the human claims otherwise to decide the father. Science can be empirical if the test is placebo but these are realistic.

    6. Jerry thinks that the OBC kunbis who committed the crimes on the Bhootmange family should not be punished and hanged but they should rather be educated that the crimes they committed are at the bidding of Dwijas.

    Rep: Armugam accused me that I am of the view that the Khairlanji villagers who have committed the crime should not be punished. The type of verdict by the fast track Court opens the channel for the convicts to approach higher Court as the rape and atrocity charges are dropped. It can be guessed that the punishment is likely to get diluted in higher Courts. This is not acceptable to us. That is why I wrote “Verdict is partially in line with the Law” and only the convicts will be punished by the Law. I further wrote that the accused are not real culprits, not in physical sense of the Law but in social sense. There is force who makes this mental status of OBC’s (Anarya Shudras only) and we all should be appraised by all the inhuman acts against the Dalits across the Country. If seen closely, one can conclude that atrocity are not committed by Brahmins or by Arya Shudra, they are only committed by Anarya Shudras only. Committing such level of crimes against humans is the result of proper planning and strong motive of the interested communities for achieving wider goals which only ruling caste has.

    7. How are you legally going to establish that the Dwijas indoctrinated the Kunbi OBCs to commit this crime. Do you have concrete evidence. The case will fall completely flat on its face.

    Rep: There is no need to prove in any Court that the Dwijas are real criminals as we do not want to go to the court of Law but we go to the people to ensure nil atrocity in future. In the present scenario, there is no other solution other than organizing mass agitation for which all the aboriginals are to be united. Case of Bhotmage is one of the atrocity committed in this country and we need to work for eradication for ever.

    I thank Armugam to put query to my thought. Ending with Agreement to Rahul that guilty is to be punished but how much will be decided by High Court? Therefore only real manu and manuvadi are to be punished. Others can be changed to standby our side. The work is started. 2 lakh Marathas renounced Hinduism to establish their own religion SHIV DHARMA in Feb 2005 at SINDKHEDRAJA, the birth place of MATA JIJABAI. Historians like A.H.Salunke, who has dissected all the hindu sacred texts is a great propagator of this fact.

    DNA of human also matches 95% to a cockroach. The race difference is found in last 2%. This is Science. We accept science as Einstein in many of his speeches declared that Buddha was the first scientist of the world.

    Note: Tried to be brief. Refer the books for further clarifications.

  2. 2 jerry

    Dear Armugam:

    Acknowledging the comments of Armugam, following is submitted for consideration of readers in view of what is written and projected by Media who is using this verdict to increase the hate by publishing the celebrations photos and satisfaction comments of Dalit leaders.

    Armugam put many questions in his comments. Reply as follows:

    Q1. Dr. Ambedkar completely dismissed the idea that the Dalits and OBCs are
    a disticnt race as compared to Dwijas.

    Rep: In his book “Falsehood of aboriginals” Mulnivasiwad ka zuth. Habir Angar E writes the above taking the support of Babasahebs book “Who were Shudras” wherein Babasaheb writes the following:

    “The conclusions that follows from the examination of the Western theory may now be summarised. They are:
    (1) The Vedas do not know any such race as the Aryan race.
    (2) There is no evidence in the Vedas of any invasion of India by the Aryan race and its having conquered the Dasas and Dasyus supposed to be natives of India.
    (3) There is no evidence to show that the distinction between Aryans, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction.
    (4) The Vedas do not support the contention that the Aryas were different in colour from the Dasas and Dasyus.”

    This has been taken and used by many writers to affirm Armugam statement.

    On the other hand, in this book Babasaheb proved all the references used by English Authors for proving that Aryans are not Indians do not stand logic. Baba dedicated this book to Mahatma Jyotirao Phule who was the first Indian to research, write and publish that Aryans invaded India and they are not Indians. In his book, Baba found flaws with all the Western Historians evidences which they used to prove that there was invasion, but he did not attack Jyotirao Phule’s work. Rather, he dedicated this book to Jyotirao Phule. Why? Here are some explanations:

    A) Firstly it is to be understood that Babasaheb’s subject was “Who were Shudras” and not “Who were Aryans”. In this book Babasaheb ends para III of chapter XI of this book with

    “All this leaves no doubt that there was no reconciliation between the Brahmins and the Shudras.”

    And begins para IV of chapter XI with

    “That the Shudras of the Indo-Aryan and the Shudras of the Hindu Society are different and distinct is a fact which was present at one time to the minds of the Dharma Sutrakaras is quite clear. This is evident from the distinction they made between Sacchudra and Asac-ckudra and between Aniravasita Shudras and Niravasita Shudras. Sachudra means a cultured Shudra and asac-chudra means an uncultured Shudra. Nirvasita Shudra means a Shudra living in the village community. Anirvasita Shudra means a Shudra living outside the village community.”

    B) He proves that Aryans Arya Shudras who were distinct from Anarya Shudras. Arya Shudras were in enmity with Anarya Shudras. He points that the laws imposed by Aryans on Arya Shudras was also imposed on Anarya Shudras Again, Babasaheb has proved at page 101 of this book that there were two types of Aryans Alpine & Mediterranean and there is no evidence to prove which of them came first in India.. The book ends with some riddles. So he is sure of Aryans entry in India. Later, he agreed with Dr. Guha in Chapter 5 Section IX and concluded that Mediterranean came first.

    C) The last para of the book is reproduced below where he referes to Aryan Shudra:

    “With regard to my thesis it will be seen that it can explain everyone of these riddles. Postulates (1) to (4) explain how the Shudras could be kings and ministers and why the rishis should praise them and desire to be in their good books. Postulates (5) and (6) explain why there was a controversy over the Upanayana of the Shudra, also why the law not only denied the right to the Shudra but imposed penalties upon a Brahmin, helping to make it effective. Indeed there is no riddle which the thesis does not solve. The thesis, if I may say so, is a close and a perfect fit. Few theses can therefore have a better title deed than this.”

    Shudra refered above are Arya Shudra and not Anarya Shudra

    D) He left scope for further investigation to be continued later, but with his other projects and then his demise he left incomplete writings on this subject which were found in one of his trunk by the Committee incharge of publishing his writings. Government of Maharashtra, who published the unpublished and half written articles of Baba in the year 1987 as Vol-III has given major advantage for others to say that Baba did not agree with Aryan invasion This was done without checking whether these writings were before 1048. Now it is seen that these incomplete writings were completed in Who were Shudras with updations, and the same were not required to be published at all.

    E) Babasaheb clearly declares that there was Aryan invasion and Aryans are outsiders giving newly found evidences. Till recent time, because there was not other learned to continue his work further, this issue is highlighted as Baba rejected AIT. No, he did not at all. He says that there are no evidences to support this theory in RG Veda. Even there is no proof to prove that the Aryans are Indians in Rg veda.

    Now, with DNA test it closes the debate once and for all and that is why David Frawley (RSS sponsored Writer) writes that there are beautiful Shudras and ugly Brahmins.

    F) Speeches of Babasaheb:

    o On 24/11/1956 at Saranath Babasaheb gave speech wherein he said “There were wars between Aryans & Nagas. Aryans were on horses and so they won the battles”.
    o On 28/10/1956 at Ludhiana Babasaheb said “When Aryans came in India, the Chaturvarna system got established”
    o On 05/10/1956 at Deeksha Bhoomi Nagpur, he said “ Nagas were enemies of Aryans and there were wars between them. Aryans even burned Nagas.

    So Babasaheb was of one opinion that Aryans are invaders to India. Only he scrutinized this issue from all the angles to leave no space for his distracters to deny his findings.

    2. There are several loopholes in this racist theory.

    REP: Reply to 1 could be the explanation

    3. There are many SC/OBC who are of eurasian origin (ex: gujjars).

    Rep: Yes, the Arya Shudra as researched by Babasaheb for the first time, there are Aryans in OBC. About Gujjars, they choose to change their status from OBC to ST only to oppose Meena’s. Gujjars were rulers till 1847 when the British tagged them as Criminal Tribes due their illicit activities. Sonars, Vaidyas, Kayasthas are other examples of Arya Shudra. But surely, Kunbhi, Kurmi, Sutar, Lohar and others are Anarya Shudras i.e. Aboriginals.

    4. Racial purity is a myth of Manuwadis

    Rep: The Dwijas are so vigilant about their leinage that they protect interest of other Dwija irrespective of Religion. The ruling caste has ample of money for such activities as they are in control of wealthiest malls of India (temples, Churches and Mosques). Yes, have you ever heard of Roman Catholic Brahmin and Hussaini Muslim Brahmin. It is the fact that Brahmin has no Religious consistency towards Hinduism which they should have had as they call themselves as Creator & Controller of Hinduism. All they want is control over Religious malls. That is why, they did not leave Bodhgaya saying that Buddha is 9th Avtar of Vishnu and so they pray him. Then why they spare rest of the Buddhist Viharas? The Hajimalang near Kalyan can also be given an example, muslim dargah under Brahmin control. Point is they seek control over Religious malls, so as to take revenge on the descendents of those Kings who punished their forefathers. This is the sole reason of hatred and entire planning done on one Agenda finish aboriginals. You may please visit http://www.aryannation.com to understand how all the Aryans across the globe are under one umbrella irrespective of religion “TO MAKE THIS EARTH FREE FROM NON ARYANS” and wipe out other races. Aryans are known to keep agenda alive for ages and strike at favourable time. We try to understand their move and prepare accordingly. Further they know from their texts that they are on this earth to protect leinage rights and act accordingly in every generation. Then why not we all come up for our cause.

    There is not question of me to shift the blame from OBC to Brahmin, it is the reality but cleverly hidden by RSS in their manifesto that the culprit is Dwijas. OBCs are only pawn in their hands.

    5. It has no scientific basis as there has been sufficient intermingling of races in India. But that would be distorting facts and the truth.

    REP: Court of Law orders DNA test in cases when a man denies to be father of the child and the human claims otherwise to decide the father. Science can be empirical if the test is placebo but these are realistic.

    6. Jerry thinks that the OBC kunbis who committed the crimes on the Bhootmange family should not be punished and hanged but they should rather be educated that the crimes they committed are at the bidding of Dwijas.

    Rep: Armugam accused me that I am of the view that the Khairlanji villagers who have committed the crime should not be punished. The type of verdict by the fast track Court opens the channel for the convicts to approach higher Court as the rape and atrocity charges are dropped. It can be guessed that the punishment is likely to get diluted in higher Courts. This is not acceptable to us. That is why I wrote “Verdict is partially in line with the Law” and only the convicts will be punished by the Law. I further wrote that the accused are not real culprits, not in physical sense of the Law but in social sense. There is force who makes this mental status of OBC’s (Anarya Shudras only) and we all should be appraised by all the inhuman acts against the Dalits across the Country. If seen closely, one can conclude that atrocity are not committed by Brahmins or by Arya Shudra, they are only committed by Anarya Shudras only. Committing such level of crimes against humans is the result of proper planning and strong motive of the interested communities for achieving wider goals which only ruling caste has.

    7. How are you legally going to establish that the Dwijas indoctrinated the Kunbi OBCs to commit this crime. Do you have concrete evidence. The case will fall completely flat on its face.

    Rep: There is no need to prove in any Court that the Dwijas are real criminals as we do not want to go to the court of Law but we go to the people to ensure nil atrocity in future. In the present scenario, there is no other solution other than organizing mass agitation for which all the aboriginals are to be united. Case of Bhotmage is one of the atrocity committed in this country and we need to work for eradication for ever.

    I thank Armugam to put query to my thought. Ending with Agreement to Rahul that guilty is to be punished but how much will be decided by High Court? Therefore only real manu and manuvadi are to be punished. Others can be changed to standby our side. The work is started. 2 lakh Marathas renounced Hinduism to establish their own religion SHIV DHARMA in Feb 2005 at SINDKHEDRAJA, the birth place of MATA JIJABAI. Historians like A.H.Salunke, who has dissected all the hindu sacred texts is a great propagator of this fact.

    DNA of human also matches 95% to a cockroach. The race difference is found in last 2%. This is Science. We accept science as Einstein in many of his speeches declared that Buddha was the first scientist of the world.

    Note: Tried to be brief. Refer the books for further clarifications.

    TYOR ERR AT PARA 1 CORR


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