Corruption comment & reply

31Oct07

 Tehelka Exposed writes ..

If what Mr Ram Jethmalani has said is true (High Corruption is result of Caste system and presence of Higher Caste people in position of Governance), it would imply that other coutries that are free from shackles of CASTE SYSTEM or control HIGHER CASTES should be free of CORRUPTION. USing that logic lets check a few countries:
1. CHINA (World’s largest country and one that has NO CASTE or RELIGIOUS control of the governance, recognized in the world to be ruled by COMMUNISTS/MAOISTS) should be free of CORRUPTION. If you look at the corruption index of all corrupt countries of the world, CHINA is same as INDIA or worse. (list is available at http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html ) Following coutries are at par when it comes to corruption.

1. Brazil 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM – Christian country
2. China 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM – Ruled by communists
3. Egypt 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM – Muslim country
4. Ghana 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM
5. India 3.3 – CASTE SYSTEM
6. Mexico 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM
7. Peru 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM
8. Saudi Arabia 3.3 – – NO CASTE SYSTEM – Muslim country
9. Senegal 3.3 – NO CASTE SYSTEM

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Dear Tahelka Exposed,

Similar looking fruits (orange) do not taste the same; countries have similar corruption ranks may differ in reasons. Brazil and china may have altogether different reasons.  Lets not fall in those discussions. Here we are not to prove India is  worst state and other’s are better. But we mind caste infestation; if caste virus is eradicated by initiating  social democratic initiatives, the economic democracy is natural to follow. Then would be more prosparity of an Indian. NO boosting of india requires.

Corruption in economic sense makes merely 1% of total social/moral corruption  seen in India. Caste being notion of mind, has corrupted entire democracy at its root preventing social democracy (Bhai Chara) to profiler. Have you gone through  Khairlanji episode; did you see naked dance of caste.  Economic corruption in India is just a byproduct of this socially unethical way of life called Caste system.

It is not true that more than 90% of bottom quartile of Indian population comes from Dalit and lower caste background? IS it not true that India Caste system in reality made skewed resources distribution in favor of few castes. Even the bureaucracy in public and private domain comes from typical caste background. While the Dalit section takes burden of productivity in minimal wages, the resourceful enjoys into indexing sensex and kickbacks. The more rticipation of different caste folk comes, more would be social equity. If you find time, pl. surf some fascinating studies from academics in past on how more diversity helps in ethical designs of systems thereby balancing growth with contentment. In India hardly any section of upper caste talks on equity; its pathetic.

With regards,
Atrocitynews Team



6 Responses to “Corruption comment & reply”

  1. Dear at AtrocityNews.com,
    First of all, I am elated to see a response to my comments and that too in a section of its own. Thanks to all of you (one and all members of the Atrocitynews.com team) for starting the conversation. I think it would be meaningful for me to put some facts about myself before I begin. Stating a few points upfront would be helpful in a carrying out a meaningful conversation as you would have some ideas of my understanding of the world as well as reduce un-necessary arguments/counter arguments.
    My beliefs:
    1. First of all let me go on record and say that I am not a supporter of discrimination and suppression that has happened in past or may be happening even today in the name of caste system by any one including those people who are belong to upper castes.
    2. I have seen the disparity and sheer poverty of the folks who are commonly denoted as “Dalits”. One has to be blind and ruthless not to see abject poverty or the plight of these people (whom at the end of day I consider as my own people) and I am not blind.
    3. I also understand the need on the part of each of us (individual level as well as on the national level) to do something meaningful that can help and alleviate their socio-economic conditions of the weaker section of our society.
    4. I personally feel that we will never become a strong nation till the point such discrimination continue to exist and I do not like that. In the League of Nations, I would like to see our nation recognized as a nation made up of people who are strong, prosperous, and smart and a noble/kind people. I know it’s a tall order and a very high expectation and we are far from that. My dream will remain a dream till the point even one person remains who feel that he/she has been discriminated against.
    5. I come from India and my ancestry (at the level of my grandfather and earlier) has all been farmers. Even though I have not myself seen the atrocities committed by upper castes, I do believe that it existed in past and exists even know as I have read and heard a lot about it in various print and news media.

    That said, I think some of the articles on this blog (atrocitynews.wordpress.com) are not necessarily very helpful to the cause of poor Indian Dalit masses. It may be generating awareness among few who read it but that’s about it. I think we should aim for goals that are a bit more substantial. Problem over here (I am not just referring to atrocitynews.wordpress.com but many such sites) is that some of the articles are factually biased or incorrect and at times soaked in so much hatred of the upper castes that it seems to me as if the focus is not on the uplifting the plight of the Dalit masses but in winning the blame game. In my opinion, name calling and spewing venom against upper castes or Brahmin won’t improve the condition of the common Dalit folks. I would have been the happiest person on earth if that were enough (name calling or spewing venom on Brahmins or Brahmnical order) to solve all the problems.

    I would write more next time.

  2. Dear team at atrocitynews.wordpress.com,
    You say that fruits that looks the same may not taste the same and I agree in the probability that it is absolutely possible that they may not taste the same. “..similar looking fruits (orange) do not taste the same; countries have similar corruption ranks may differ in reasons. Brazil and china may have altogether different reasons. …” . But won’t you agree that of 200 fruits of the same kind and same look and feel, chances of their tasting the same are very high (if not all, most of them will taste the same ?). Only reason why I came up with that was because of your article (Higher Caste Merit = High Corruption), Can you really elaborate on that ? I agree that we should not be falling in for these discussions. I will accept that your objective is not to prove India in bad light or as the worst nation as compared to others.
    If I can understand right, you are perturbed or disturbed by the huge disparities created by the caste system ? Isn’t that right ? If your answer is yes, I would like to know how exactly would you propose a solution to get rid of the caste caused discrimination (…caste infestation…). What kind of social democratic initiative have you in mind ? It is a very hard thing to get rid of the discriminating nature of human mind (which in my opinion is the result of the problems in today’s world not just in India, but all over the world) but I definitely understand the importance of removing this evil from the Indian social perspective. What I am not sure of is whether eradication of cast virus will solve all of our problems and economic prosperity will automatically follow which you claim to be the case. Can you give me some examples to substantiate your point wherein this has been the case. Pick any country that has comparable size (top 50 most populus nations of the world may be a starting point) and show me if any one of them has achieved this and if they did it then how (mode and dynamics). I will not be doing any more boosting of India even if you can give me one solid example.
    You will find that caste virus is absent in all countries of the world except Indian subcontinent for most part of the last 5000 years and still for the most part of last 5000 years (except last 200+ years), India was the most PROSPEROUS nation on the face of planet earth. Discovery of American subcontinent and may other little and big islands of the world owe their existance to the incessant desire of the world at large to find and explore new ways of travel into the great mass of India and do whatever business or pludering they could do….Even today with all our problems, we are richer that 90% of the independent nations of the world. Does that make me happy ? Answer is absolute NO. Why ? Because a great section of our society (more than 70%) still lives life of abject poverty or for lack of other words are very poor and a good section within this are extremely poor. Can we blame the CASTE system for this poor state of affairs ? Probably to some degree. Why ? Because it did create a situation that made a great section of our society limited in what they can do and it got further complicated because selfish and twisted format (the time when the CASTE came to be associated with birth) in which it had been practised for a long time in India has done some real harm to social fabric of the country and I for one, definitely believe that it did create huge discrimination against economically and socially backword groups. But that said, caan you blame it solely on the caste system ? My answer is absolute NO. It will be very irresponsible to blame to one single factor let alone caste ssytem. I don’t think I can blame the caste equation for even 50% of the problems.
    You further say that “Corruption in economic sense makes merely 1% of total social/moral corruption seen in India.” That’s not true. It make ups for majority of the problem for India ( I think more than 70% of the problem even though again I cant blame one single factor as such). If there was no corruption, all of the programs and social initiatives that were initiated by Government since days of independence would have benefitted a large chuck of the socially backword classes. It did not ? Will you say otherwise ? I don’t see much improvement in the lives of the dalit mases. It is a perfect example of corrupt machinary. Either its corrupt economically or politically or morally.Why not rich and powerful among Dalits share their wealth and power with their own brothers (read folks like RAMVILAS PASWAN and many others) ? Or is Dalit card only in play on election day or to get some leverage out of social issues for their own political end ? ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS EVERY ONE and ABOSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. This is a saying but is very true. “Caste” as a notion seems to have travelled many places has been led into multitude of interpretations and I may agree that after all it may be “notion of mind” as everything else is. There is not such thing as corrupt democracy. Corruption happens at individual level (because of intense pressure of economics and hunger and and lack of option and ability at an individual level) and then this corruption slowly infects the system. Once infected, it creates a vicious cycle and once you are into it, you either fight and win or perish by either becoming part of it or losing your life. It is hard to know whether you become corrupted because of the system or because of your lack of will power to fight corruption.
    I have not gone through the Khairlanji episode thoroughly and did not have any prior information about it but based on what I read on your website and some other sources, I would condemn the perpetuators of this tragedy, whoever they might be ! If our system fails to catch them or bring them to justice, it will be a big shame to all of us. But I know for one thing, if any supernatural power exists, and law of statistics tell me that it may exist for sure, than laws of that supernatural power (I know many of you are atheist or humanist and may not believe in such things and as such shall we call it “God” for lack of space ?), I am sure, will not discriminate and will make them (perpetuators of such tragedies) pay for their mistakes.
    You say that “Economic corruption is just a product of this social unethical way of life called Caste system.”- I personally do not agree with this statement. There is not a single country in this whole world which has not seen corruption and there are close to 200 countries in this world or more. Most of the corrupt countries are corrupt inspite of the being free of caste system.
    Here are my response to some questions that you posed to me. It is not true that more than 90% of bottom quartile of Indian population comes from Dalit and lower caste background? – I believe you are right even though percentage may be off somewhat but I get the point.
    Is it not true that India Caste system in reality made skewed resources distribution in favor of few castes ? – Again I get your point. Even though in past it may have been more true that today not sure. I may pose a question to you. Is it true even now ? Do you know how may billionaires and millianires we have in India today ? Do you think they are all product of caste system ? Did Laxmi Mittal became rich because of caste system ? Did Tatas became rich because of caste system ? Did Azim Premji became rich because of caste system ? Did Ambanis became rich because of caste system ? Did many other names became rich because of caste system ? I can go on and on and on… These are product of today’s Market economy as practised in the West ?
    Even the bureaucracy in public and private domain comes from typical caste background. – I think you are partly right and partly wrong. Do you know that India had three Muslim presidents, one Dalit president and one woman president apart from a multitude of dalit and lower caste high ranking ministers so far ? How many chief ministers today are from Dalit background ? I can count a few ( Chief ministers of Bihar, UP, Jharkhand, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, Maharashtra (not now) and others. There has been reservation In Indian Public services sector from 60 years or so. Why we still have lack of people from Dalit background in publoc bureaucracy ? Has it something to do with corruption at some level of some kind ?
    While the Dalit section takes burden of productivity in minimal wages, the resourceful enjoys into indexing sensex and kickbacks. Are Dalits taking mimimal wages because of their caste or because of their sheer economic poverty ? I can count of many upper castes who are working of minimal wages ? If that is the case in India, why I see a majority of the world population (read everything in Africa and good part of Asia, Europe and Americas minus India) still taking the burden of productivity in minimal wages ?
    In India hardly any section of upper caste talks on equity; its pathetic. It has some truth in it but I can count a few names if you want to me to dispel the notion that no one from uppers castes has spoken in this matter. Lets not forget who introduced and implmented the Mandal commission report first in recent memory? Have you seen the background of all the communists from Bengal or even Kerala (you will see that a majority of them are from upper castes). Whom do you think Jyoti Basu belongs to ? Not that I like any one of them in particular but thought of throwing in few names just for the sack of it.

  3. I’ve learned a lot from your article, thanks for info, keep us posting

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